FORMULA OR BREAST MILK? THE TRUTH HOSPITALS WON’T TELL YOU

Why This Story Matters

Dr Pompa 0:00

Could infant formula be causing unnecessary deaths in this country? Okay, well, it's even worse than you can imagine. And I'm here with one of the top attorneys bringing litigation against infant formula manufacturers and hospitals for not informing parents about these risks of a certain form of colitis. Wait to hear this show. You're going to want to share it. This is tragic. I'm here with Paul Levin. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

My pleasure. You're welcome.

Dr Pompa 0:32

What a subject this is right now, and I can't wait to unfold it. It would be fascinating if it wasn't so tragic. Yep, absolutely. I believe this litigation has an incredible opportunity to change health, especially obviously in uh the um infants and children in this country. I want you and just from the top down, you know, what is this litigation all about? And why do I believe what I believe? It didn't start in the courtroom.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

It starts in the neo-intensive care units or these hospitals to take care of these premature infants. And so for your audience, that's about three or four hundred thousand live births per year in our country. And uh these are very vulnerable kids, these are very they're uh immature immune systems, digestive systems, they they face a host of frailties, and uh it's challenging. And some of the most talented physicians obviously are taking care of these babies. And the parents, uh, as you can imagine, it's the most vulnerable time for them as well. They're they're afraid, they're sleep deprived, and they're trusting that the institution, wherever they are, uh whichever hospital is going to have uh the best interest of the children at heart and their normative practices are going to be the ones that are going to be the safest and that they will be informed. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Dr Pompa 1:53

But but describe the litigation. Start there right now, nobody understands, right? In other words, what's going on in the NICUs around the country with these premature infants and that is causing health conditions, a serious gut condition, colitis. And that's the litigation. But describe it from the top so they understand what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

So in the NICU, the babies have to be fed. Sometimes the mothers uh aren't producing breast milk in sufficient quantities or or at all. Uh and sometimes the babies are so small they want to fortify and grow these babies because the quicker you grow them, it's it's healthy for them and they can get out of the woods, as they say. So what's happening is instead of um donor milk from humans, which is a great substitute for human breast milk and generally available and has been for decades, uh the product manufacturers, the milk industry, it's a multi-billion dollar industry, provides an alternative. They actually, in many instances, give it to the hospitals for free. They lose money on that in order to get their, in in some people's opinion, their brand in front of um the the parents because then they go to Walmart.

Dr Pompa 3:01

Right. So this is a a type of baby formula that they're using in the premies. Yeah. And um obviously it's causing some gut problems, colitis, and I I know how this works. Once you disrupt the gut that young, now you have autoimmune and all these other things that happen later, right? So this isn't just about, you know, a little bit of inflammation in the gut. No, this is transformative in a negative way for this this infant and this baby's life.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Right. Um, so it's bovine-based, which is which is cow's milk instead of human milk. And of course, cow's milk, unlike human milk, doesn't have these hundreds of different oligosaccharides, which are you know known to be protective of the biome, the gut biome, as you say, and and very useful for for humans. It I mean, this has been going over 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 years, and you're you're substituting it with something that uh you know the human body wasn't made to made to have it. So there's that inflammatory process that you you mentioned, um, and there's the lack of natural protections that come from human-derived breast milk.

How Preterm Babies Get Fed

Dr Pompa 4:03

Listen, I'm I'm always telling moms, whatever you do, don't give food until the baby's gut is ready. Typically that's when the teeth come in. So you're you're talking months down the road, um, you know, years that we would actually give some of these types of protein that are in the bovine milk. Now, uh, you know, we had this conversation that I believe conventional dairy is one of the most damaging things to humans, let alone a premi. Okay, so why? Growth hormone. It's pasteurized, homogenized, every protein denatured, antibiotics, um, I mean, you name it. Uh, you can find the toxins, the pesticides concentrated in the fat. Okay, that's one problem. And we're giving that to a premi whose gut isn't even mature yet. No wonder it's causing a form of colitis. Um, and then you also have the fact that even if it were uh a perfect source of food, if you will, the baby's gut's just too immature and it would still make antibodies, proteins, and drive inflammatory conditions, right? But it's beyond even the toxic dairy that's in it. What else did you find in these premi formulas?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

There's a scientific basis to believe that it's hard to digest certain elements, uh processed carbohydrates, which I know are not good for hu full-grown humans, but they're probably uh at least a lyric.

Dr Pompa 5:29

Modified food starches, modified um malodextrin.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Malodextrin, yeah, malodextrin, which people might consider sort of a form of corn syrup. Yeah. And this is something introduced at a very fragile state. Um, and you know, you know, nobody really understands what quantities are safe, if any quantities are safe. So you you can't really measure it, define it, uh, but what you can do is avoid it. Okay because there are substitutes, human breast milk substitutes, and even fortifications made from human breast milks that have been generally available. But the big companies that are um providing, you know, mead and and and abbot labs, they're they're not producing this and selling this. So they're not there are incentives that are not always aligned with the best interests of of the public health, I guess one could say. Uh and then when you have a lack of complete scientific certainty, um you can you and and the these incentives also impact the hospital systems themselves. It's not only that they give the formula for free and gift bags to the babies, but they also are involved in educating the people who are therefore the intermediaries between the parents and and the children taking the medicine or the food, if you want to call it food. Yeah. Uh the they're being educated in some respects by the very companies. They're doing research studies and they're going to the hospitals and they're collegial with them. And and of course, they also support uh scientific research and other goals that the hospitals have. Because these are these are probably loss-leading uh institutions like the baby care is not where the hospitals make their money, it's where they lose money.

Dr Pompa 7:10

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and and to your point, it's at the end of the day, it's about dollars and cents, just like everything. I make this argument even with vaccines. So the the people in the hospitals are literally being taught that this is good. I mean, in a nutshell, that's what you're saying, right? They're being trained that it's good. And do they think it's good? Maybe some think it's bad. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

So it's a it's a complex issue issue, really. It's it's multifactorial. So the the doctors who are well trained in the science, they very well know and understand that there are risks and offsets to those risks. But for example, in a case that we tried in um in Connecticut against Yale Hospital, which is a obviously a venerable leading institution, the judge found, um to her dismay, because she she was pretty clear about it in her memorandum decision, that there was no consent being obtained from the parents, no discussion about the material risks of feeding this cow-based warmers.

Dr Pompa 8:06

And that's part of the lawsuit, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

That's one aspect of the lawsuit.

Dr Pompa 8:09

Okay. All right. So because parents should be told that, okay, this isn't um you know, or I I I don't know. What should they be told? Meaning, you know, should they be told there's risk factors, should they be told it's not, you know, I I'm not sure because if there's no proof that it is risk, so kind of take us through that.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

So th this is really a larger conversation that pertains to how any product, medicine, or food that is delivered to the consuming public, uh, particularly when um there are alternatives, if you use certain products that even if you use them the correct way, they they present certain risks and you can't avoid them, that's something that should be transmitted by the product manufacturers. That's something that should in the in the case of hospitals. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Dr Pompa 8:57

But wouldn't the product manufacturer say And matter of fact, I don't even I mean I guess the product manufacturers being sued and then also are the hospitals also being sued? For different reasons.

Cow Milk Versus Human Milk

SPEAKER_00 9:11

For different reasons. It's yeah, obviously. It's primarily against the product manufacturers because they're the source of where you can maybe correct the problem. Uh they can still sell their baby formula to full terms, which are about 90% of the population, without this terrible risk of this necrotizing entercroitis um developing. There's a high association of increased risk, seven, eight, or ten times the one, kind of like smoking cigarettes and getting lung cancer, when you give this cow-based formula to these very, very small infants. Whereas the risk is close to zero if you're giving it to a full-term. Different formula because they they they they modify the ingredients.

Dr Pompa 9:53

But I I would argue though, because I know I know how this works, even a full-term. I I would argue, even, you know, um a younger child, there's still consequences, but the problem is, is they're here. So to prove that it's directly related, this is you know, a lot of what happens in any of these things. I know that it creates an inflamed gut. And then all of a sudden now, age three eczema breaks out. Um, age two, um, all of a sudden, you know, the child's not sleeping and is fussy. And uh, you know, the list goes on. Obviously, at four years old, now they have um, you know, some other uh developmental problems that we can look back and say, oh, it was way back here. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

You're not alone. I mean, the American Academy of Pediatric Physicians uh also endorses the fact that a human exclusive human milk diet should be fed for the first year or something. Absolutely. But it's not always possible, and that's i in the NICU setting, because a certain percentage of kids, you know, you you can't let a kid go hungry and you have to make them grow. Aaron Powell I get that. So the real question then be for me anyway, the and the fascinating uh issue is how is it that something that could be deadly and dangerous became so normative, so standard?

Dr Pompa 11:06

Okay, that was you're ahead of me there. Yeah, because I'm in that environment. Like how did how did that happen? Aaron Powell Well, I that was a question I had. But before I I even wanted to ask that question, I was going to ask, okay, well, do the manufacturers what studies are in other words, if they're liable to say there's risks, who did the studies to show that there are risks causing damage? You know, the manufacturer probably didn't do those. So, you know, where was that done? I mean, uh obviously there's risk. I could tell you that without one study, but where are where's the proof that it is risky? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

So proof in in the legal realm is different than in the scientific realm, because the scientific realm may have a more rigorous standard, like 99 percent. If you said to a scientist or a doctor, you know, can you make a decision based on reasonable medical probability, which might be 51 percent, they may look at you like you're crazy because we're not gonna change practices or endorse methods that don't re- you know, and and to your question about studies, you can't do a double-blind study ethically. I know.

Dr Pompa 12:07

That's the vaccine problem, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, uh another subject. But yeah, so then what how you're winning these cases?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Trevor Burrus, Jr. So the there's strong, strong epidemiological evidence, and this is not new evidence. This is not evidence that was lawyer-developed. This is evidence that's existed for decades. It's actually was fostered by the World Health Organization, and it led in part to a treaty that many, many countries signed off on. And during the Reagan years, we were they were trying to get the U.S. to do it. The U.S. did not do it. There was a very powerful lobby, not different in some respects to the tobacco lobby, which promoted not becoming signatories to it. And it was basically to stop all forms of marketing of formula, not only to hospitals, but also commercially. A treaty. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: There's a an international treaty promoted with a hundred signatories.

Dr Pompa 13:02

We're not one of them. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So basically, around the world, like, hey, we can't market infant formula, period. And I want I want to get into infant formula is another subject, but you know, because what we're talking about here is a little bit of a different formula for these premiums.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Okay, very similar, but a little bit different, maybe it's just fed at a different time of their life, and at a at a at a stage when they're 32, 34, 35 weeks instead of 39 weeks.

Dr Pompa 13:27

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So for this treaty, if you will, you know, international concern that we're giving it, so meaning that there's plenty of concern, there's plenty of study somewhere that's showing that there's risk to this. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a treaty.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

There's consensus on this issue that human milk is protective and it should be utilized. Okay. There's consensus on the issue that it is particularly helpful uh for preterbs for for infants born before 38 or 39. What? The formula? No. Oh, human breast milk. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: There is consensus, I would say, um that if there are reasonable available alternatives uh that involve human-based feeding, those should be exploited.

Dr Pompa 14:14

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So donor, donor milk, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But the supply is probably and there are statistical epidemiological evidence from um studies that were were were done based on retrospective populations and just seeing outcomes. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.

Dr Pompa 14:31

Meaning the mu the mu uh any type of human milk is going to be better. I think there's a consensus. I think everyone would agree with that, right? Okay, so human milk's best, but the supply obviously is limited for donor milk. So therefore, what do we give these premies if we don't have that?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

So you have to feed them something, but if you're suppressing demand for human-based alternatives because you're giving uh under exclusive contracts, for example, where you you so you're economically disincentivizing and making it uh less available.

Dr Pompa 15:09

And then the other thing is meaning the manufacturer, the company, because of dollars and cents, is doing that because this is business for them.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's business for them. And look, they they certainly believe that their product is not harmful.

Dr Pompa 15:21

You have to credit that theory because Monsanto, Bay or Monsanto, just like you know, the vaccine companies, right?

Processed Additives And Gut Stress

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Okay. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But even if you credit that to be true, they are still an obligation under the law and and and morally for them to transmit the knowledge that they have institutionally to the intermediaries such as the hospitals, because they're not going to Walmart to buy this. Right. You can regular infant formula to transmit that knowledge base. And in some instances, they're working, one would say, to in cross-purposes to that, because they're conducting their own studies which throw question on the viability of the studies that are being relied on. And you know, there are public domain um studies that are available that they knew about, everybody else knew about, such as with the piglets, these little little baby piglets. And in order to produce uh necrotized gentricrolitis so that they could measure it, treat it, and and and just see if there's ways to make it less deadly, they needed to induce this. So to induce it, they fed things that are very similar to commercial formula, the commercial preterm formula, which has a high content of malodextrin and some other uh processed carbohydrates. Right.

Dr Pompa 16:35

And it worked. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And bad oils, obviously. There's a lot of really dangerous oils in there, another subject. But they fed them to the piglets.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Trevor Burrus, Jr. And at a high rate of success, the piglets developed necrotizing entercolitis. And I I don't know if we said it, but one out of three babies, infants, human infants that get this disease die. So it's got a high rate of mortality. So one out of three, and that's three or four thousand, because there's three or four hundred thousand births with the preterm births, and about one percent of them globally, which is three or four thousand per year nationally, get this. So one, let's say it's three thousand. So one thousand babies are dying from this disease. Wow, yeah. The other thousand are getting um are having long-term harm because they they're they're they're called surgical neck babies because in order to save their lives, they have to cut out portions of the affected gut. So they get short gut syndrome, they get neural development disorders.

Dr Pompa 17:37

And they have problems their whole life, trust me. I know how this goes.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And then a thousand are very lucky because of the 3,000, a thousand are medical neck, they don't proceed to surgery, they're recognized early enough that they're showing signs of neck before systemic sepsis takes over. And they reverse it with the.

Dr Pompa 17:54

And you're saying neck to just so we don't have to say that.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Necrotizing interucolitis.

Dr Pompa 17:59

For sure. Okay. For sure. Okay, as the the attorney, what would in your mind be the perfect thing? Here we are, I'm a parent. Okay. I'm I'm here I am with with my preemy. What should in your mind be said to me as the person sitting there, you know, this is all new to me? What should legally be told to me in my wife?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

So you should be told that there are risks that we have practices that and and in the case of Yale, they were not stocking human milk alternatives. We don't have this. If you feel strongly about this, we'll either try to get it for you, we'll get you to an institution that stocks it so that you you can have it available. If if your baby doesn't grow at the rate we need, we have to fortify, or if you can't produce milk and we don't have access to donor milk, Yale now does have access to donor milk. In fact, they did then too. What they didn't have.

Dr Pompa 18:57

And by the way, you're the that was the first study was at the Yale um uh the the that hot particular hospital. Is it not the first study. I'm sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Lawsuit. So uh the f it it it's it's an interesting course. So I I'll digress for 30 seconds so you understand how this this happened. Six years ago, a lady met my partner at McDonald's in New Haven, Connecticut, and said, I believe my baby died because they fed them cows-based formula. Six years ago. Six years ago. Um could have been seven years ago, because uh because the baby I'm thinking, I think was born in 2013.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

All right.

NEC Risk And Life-Long Harm

SPEAKER_00 19:39

We all looked at that mother like she had three heads because how and she her baby was born in in Yale and and take taken care of in the NICU. We just we couldn't believe it, but listen, she had she had a good explanation. The baby had doubled in weight, it was doing well, it was out of the woods from all the things that can normally happen quickly within the first 30, 40 days of life. But we looked at it, we looked at the studies, we actually called some of the experts, and some of the experts pointed at us to other people, both in the country and out of the country. And we we we felt that this was it was intolerable that she brought this to your law firm. She did. And she didn't do the research. She maybe she did some limited research. She was searching for answers. Correlation, she wanted to understand why her baby was dead. And she she didn't have an adequate explanation. Uh and perhaps she she noticed in the medical records that the baby was fed things that she didn't know that she the baby was fed. And so that was maybe part of her curiosity. Um but once we looked at it, we understood that there was potential harm, systemic harm, part of it being the product itself and the lack of the better product, which is a natural occurring product, part of it being the information flow, because she, like other mothers uh and parents, were not being told that they were being fed something that could be harmful to that population.

Dr Pompa 21:01

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I think that was the start of my question, right? So I should have been told, hey, you're we're not giving the baby a human formula here. It's a formula that is not as good. And should they be told, and there are some studies that show that it's this is standardized in any context.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

You go into a doctor's office, you go into a hospital, any medicine you're gonna take, you're gonna be told there are risks, there are benefits. Okay. You should be told what the reasonable alternatives are, if there are any. But none of this is being done. None of this was being done because the not only was the feeding practice normalized, but the lack of consent and the lack of informed consent being communicated to the parents, that somehow became normalized. That was the most shocking part for us, because we couldn't we couldn't fathom how good doctors with a knowledge base that they had would not have communicated this information and obtained informed consent. Curiously, even Even at Yale, if you wanted to get donor milk, if you said to them, you know, I can't produce enough milk, can my baby have donor milk, human donor milk? They make you sign a consent form because it's pasteurized. And because the the the milk banks require the hospitals to get informed consent, but they were not obtaining informed consent. Not on the toxic formula, but on donor milk. Be more careful. That is my work. Yes, but they were not they so what they were doing with donor milk, they were not doing so the practice of not non-disclosure was normalized and somehow justified, which you know, medical ethics is is not is not a forte for a lawyer. We we you know we we come after the fact. We look at the communication retrospectively. What was said, what wasn't said, what should have been said. But I I know that in in in medical school, uh medical ethics, that's a that's a big part of what you learn. I mean, uh, and you have more information about what how you actually communicate information as a clinician yourself. You've actually had to sit with people and explain to them in language that they'll understand material information, just what we're talking about. I don't do that, and I don't have the expertise to do that. We look retrospectively at that at this issue, and interestingly, in most of the states, it's a subjective standard. It's not a physician standard. It's a what would the reasonable person, in this case parent, wanted to know in order to have appreciation of the risk, the alternatives. Trevor Burrus, Jr. But then that's not being done.

Dr Pompa 23:34

But it's not being done at all. Aaron Powell Is any hospital doing this? Aaron Powell Of course some are.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Okay. And many are. Okay. So we So what are the We started this litigation simply, primarily with a goal of addressing it at the manufacturer level. But we also realized that it may not be enough, that we would have to send a message. Then we didn't want to go on a campaign and start suing every hospital around the country. We didn't. And when I say we, I don't just mean my firm, but I mean some of the other firms that also began looking at the issue that we started.

Dr Pompa 24:06

So I mean it it's kind of like when you see a thing on television that asbestos causes can't uh mesotheliomia. Mesotheliomia. I can't say it. Um and then they go, oh, wow, and call our firm. So once this gets out, that so then we don't they could advertise for parents who their babies died. It might be this, we don't know, but we'll look into if it is. Now they have a lawsuit.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's it is an industry that it's called the mass toward industry, and it has it has a downside to it, and it's as ugly as the signage that you see on the highways, call me if you've been in an accident. Yeah. It's the same concept, it's protected free speech, and they do it. Um so that's the bad part of it. But the good part of it is a good part that you collaborate with other high-level law firms as we did, who have resources and a common purpose. And fundamentally, the common purpose, I mean, everybody has a business, but the common purpose here is to find some meaning uh in the business that you're doing and some benefit that you're bringing to somebody. So you're not just getting paid, you know, for selling hamburgers or whatever, because we're not. I mean, we're as lawyers and professionals.

Dr Pompa 25:18

I mean, I see it as clean as just like anything else. You know, manufacturers of vaccines can't be sued. You know, there is a reason for lawsuits, there's a reason for tort, because obviously it makes people do the right thing. What should be done here is parents should be given a choice, right? It's donor, uh, donor milk is best. Here's why. This is an alternative if, you know, if for whatever reason you can't supply, it should be their choice, an educated decision. How how many hospitals are doing that versus and this is a guess, this is a guess for you, you don't know exactly, but and versus not. So, I mean, how widespread is this is what I'm asking.

Informed Consent And The Yale Case

SPEAKER_00 25:57

The lack of disclosure seems to have been very, very widespread in 1920, in 2020, when we started bringing these lawsuits. It does appear that the word has gotten out and that the concept that first from a risk management standpoint, because you know hospitalists they they pay attention to what happens, when we achieved uh even before we achieved a large verdict against Yale, I think the very fact that the litigation was was present and ongoing, it became a topic that risk managers at hospital had to be aware of. And of course, the physicians that occupy the the NICUs were also aware of it. And to some extent, they they may have had some impact on on uh decisions that were being made, what what formula was being stocked or not stocked, or alternatives were being offered, but maybe their voices weren't heard loudly enough because maybe it's very expensive, even for well-to-do hospitals. So, like Yale, I think I you sent your staff a letter that was signed by all the physicians at Yale because they were so they were asking the Connecticut legislature to basically through Medicaid provide human donor milk to about 30 babies a year, and that would save, they imagine, 10 lives per year and 10 in Connecticut alone, and 10 and 10 babies from having these long-term problems, they estimated. And they actually proposed um you know the economic trade-off. And so to save the life of a neck baby could be a half a million dollars because of all the surgeries and the extra care. Yeah. And of course, if you can save them, then you can't measure the loss there. But to provide donor milk, I don't know if it was$30,000 or it wasn't cheap. Okay. But compare that to the cost of the loss of life. So the the the if you align the economic incentives with the outcomes that you want, saving lives and saving morbidity long term, it actually makes sense to do that. But even Yale asked the Connecticut legislature to pay for it. And perhaps the insurance companies were not, you know, paying for it. And so there's a health equity issue here for you to be aware of or your viewership. Yeah. The poorer the hospital or the less educated the families are about breastfeeding and the importance of this, the higher the neck rates. So if you look at this, in the deep south, you're gonna have slightly higher neck rates and less availability in some instances of things that are life-preserving, such as human donor milk. That's changing also.

Dr Pompa 28:22

What is the supply of human donor milk? It's elastic. It can grow. Okay. It can be So this all could be solved, meaning that we technically there could be companies that you know source donor milk and we could fill in these gaps. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

There are companies also who have taken human donor milk supply and and have developed um fortifications. So there's a company called Prolacta, which has been around since 2007 or so. And I think the fortifications that um because sometimes you have to take regular formula and enhance it to get extra caloric content because you have limited liquid intake that it that a preterm can can sustain.

Dr Pompa 29:02

Yeah, but you know, a lot of the times they're just looking for c calories. And you know, and they end up because I have been, I've done videos in Walmart and looking at the formulas, and I'm disgusted by it. It's not even food, in my opinion. It's loaded with you know bad oils, you know, seed oils, rancid seed oils, bad fats that drive cellular inflammation. It's loaded with different chemicals. It's loaded with, if you if you analyze it, you'd find glyphosate, which opens the gut. I mean, this is formulas. There's dyes, there's I mean, everything that we know is bad isn't a formula. It's almost like they, you know, tried to make it, you know, bad. Okay. But the fact is it's probably all dollars and cents, and it's all about just calories and protein. It's all about macros, not really understanding, you know, what babies need.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

It's interesting because uh the formula companies, they do some good here because they they do provide and and uh subsidize and pay for research studies that the hospitals and the neo andatologists wouldn't have the money to do. And they so it's not all evil and it's not all counterproductive. The problem is, and I mean, and and this is more in the personal opinion category, although they're it it is based on um evidence of sorts. Um if they if they have parents who leave the hospital, I don't mean just the NICUs, but who leave the hospital that are used to taking um Me Johnson's brand versus Abbott's brand and their babies are doing well and thriving, they're much more likely for the next two years or so to go to Walmart or Target and buy the same brand. Yeah, that's it. So, you know, you don't want to sort of anal analyze it or analogize it to um getting them hooked. But I think in the corporate boardrooms, they probably use a more benign concept.

Dr Pompa 30:54

But the idea is market share for the Trevor Burrus, and people in those boardrooms think their product's good. Uh you know, I mean they're focusing on the positive, right? Just like in the vaccine boardrooms.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Trevor Burrus They do, but you know, one of the things that's interesting about this litigation, and it's the product side of the litigation, not the informed consent side vis-a-vis the hospital.

Dr Pompa 31:14

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: We have two things here, right? The product uh lawsuit against the manufacturers, and then we have the hospital that they should inform people. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Which is a much smaller subset. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

And it's it may be dozens around the country, whereas there's thousands of lawsuits one would say against the product manufacturer, because you know, you're placing the responsibility at the source rather than at an intermediary, although the intermediary, as we were discussing earlier, has a responsibility here, recognized in law, but also to the parents who rely on these institutions.

Dr Pompa 31:46

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. And to your point, since this first lawsuit at Yale, more and more hospitals are going, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't want to be sued. Um, so let's make sure we tell parents that they have a choice. This is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

The good coming out of the litigation is also that, you know, standards of care they evolve over time. They're not quickly churning. Because of the scientific mind. You don't change practices until you have very good reasons to do that. You don't just jump through.

Dr Pompa 32:11

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But that's starting to happen.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's been happening. Okay. And so donor milk is becoming normalized, even in many, many hospitals around the country, that that was not the case five and six years ago. So look, we'll never know the numbers and there'll never be uh clarity on this. But I think it's fair to say that just bringing awareness to the issue also uh magnifies the informed consent duty to the hospital and the supply chain. Yeah, right.

Dr Pompa 32:39

I mean, I I think that that no mat that's a very important lawsuit. People have to have a choice, they have to be educated that you know this stuff can, in this many cases, cause this colitis, right? I mean, they need to be informed that there's a choice of you know, a human breast milk donor. Okay, but now let's focus on that manufacturer lawsuit, right? Because that's a that is a little different. Um what is the goal that you're trying to do get the manufacturer to do?

SPEAKER_00 33:06

So from our own standpoint, obviously, you bring a money, you you bring a lawsuit for monetary compensations, compensatory damages to the families that already have uh obtained uh loss and they need compensation. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Dr Pompa 33:20

And I'm there's so much here. But uh how how many families are looking for compensation right now? So I mean there's three to four thousand of these cases a year. How many are looking for compensation? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

So filed cases, there's several thousand. Okay. There's a uh a national, what they call federal um MDL, where any any case in federal court gets consolidated and and is administrated by one central judge who uh sets bellwether trials and so on. And that's a smaller population of cases because in this instance you have cases that are filed in many instances overwhelmingly in state court in Illinois, where the man at least one of the manufacturers is based, if not both.

Dr Pompa 34:00

Are they suing both the hospital and the manufacturer? Is there always two losses? Okay. Um how do they choose ass suing I should have been told? Oh, and and you know, this product. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

So product liability uh is uh is a case against the manufacturer, and that's because of either product defect or manufacturing defect. But it also encompasses a Well they would say it's not a defect, it's the very nature of the product. Trevor Burrus But if that's true, assume that's true for the moment, they still have an obligation to warn of risk. So product liability, they also have a duty to manufacture a safe product, and they have a duty to warn about aspects of the product that might may not be safe. So we're we're suing them for both aspects. We're saying that the product is defective because it's actually you're selling something that's inferior to a naturally occurring product, and you're not telling people about it, and you're and you're miseducating. These are allegations, right? And this is these are court allegations and and pleadings. Um but we have proved it twice. At least juries in two state court cases, besides the Yale case against the hospital that we talked about, juries in Missouri and juries in Illinois have found this to be true in those particular instances. And they've uh they've also found punitive conduct or misconduct on the part of, I believe it was Abbott, um, in a$400 and$400 million punitive award, never mind the compensatory award, which was large itself, but a punitive award that got the attention of the CEO of Abbott, who basically threatened to withdraw the preterm formula from the market because they couldn't sustain this kind of financial burden. Right.

Dr Pompa 35:40

I mean, that that's the goal in my mind.

Product Liability And Jury Verdicts

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I mean so force them to make a safer product. And to your point, you can leave 90% and argue about it it could cause other kinds of health conditions longer term, but it won't be high impact, immediate, acute death and morbidity of the type that we're talking about with this necrotizing entroclitis. If they did withdraw the the preterm formula, except for maybe very specialized cases where they've come up with certain uh formula concoctions that they can't even produce through through through normal channels for maybe specific infants in specific circumstances, those sort of one-offs. But even then, if they could base it on a human-derived- Yeah, that's my point.

Dr Pompa 36:26

Is is I think that if these lawsuits continue, the goal is to get them to produce a safer product. I mean, meaning that, okay, there could be a supply issue with breast milk. I mean, I that's the best alternative. Human donor. Okay. But okay, they want to manufacture a product for this gap that maybe exists. Okay. So they need to be forced to make a safer product, get the melodextrin out, get you know, these massively refined carbohydrates out, the bad oils, the corn syrup, the I mean, you know, that all needs to come out. It's like, and I, you know, they could use a better milk. They could be using cow cow's milk, but cow's milk, they could be using goat milk base, sheep milk, you know, base, and and there's things they can do to make it safer.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

So the lawyers, the trial lawyers that are handling these cases, our firm included, we're not regulators. We're not public health safety experts. We don't define public policy, and we certainly don't have the knowledge base to make the statements that you're making with any degree of confidence.

Dr Pompa 37:24

So that's sort of Yeah, but I I'll but can't but is the goal Okay. The manufacturer lawsuit. What is the goal?

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Well, it's stated there's a technical answer and then there's you know a human answer. The technical answer is defined by the prayer for relief. So the prayer for relief doesn't ask for adjunctive action, which would mean forcing them forcing them to pull off the prayer. What does that mean? That's a that's an attorney jargon. So at the end of the complaint, you ask the court for something. And in this case, we're asking for monetary compensation. Okay. We're not asking for injunctive relief, which would basically be pulling off the market.

Dr Pompa 38:04

So you just want to get compensation from your from your I get that. Okay, because they're the your client is your you know, what do they want? Do they ultimately want to see the formula get changed a bit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they want compensated right there. So that's the first goal. But can't there be another bigger goal of like, you know, how who's gonna come in and say, okay, you have to make these safer? I mean, that's another lawsuit, it sounds like we not really.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Okay. But I but I I think that the uh the ultimate goal is to is obviously to advance safety and save these vulnerable babies. Yeah. But to do that, it requires more than just what the lawyers can accomplish in the courtroom. Certainly some of the documents and internal um emails and things like that that will be brought to light, and some of which have been brought to light, are instrumental in forming those that actually make decisions about what should be and shouldn't be available to the consuming public. So I think there's a secondary benefit for what we're doing that will allow people who actually are in position, whether it's the FDA. Um I know you're uh very familiar with a number of health initiatives that are equally important to s to basically better the health of the nation and and produce better.

Dr Pompa 39:23

I want to take this to Bobby. I I want to be like, look, it's like because right now, I mean, in the news is they're trying to get hospitals to have better food, period. Right. I mean sort of dovetail. Instead of throwing more insure at people, which is like it's again, insure is like the adult version of this, by the way. High calories, focused on macros, loaded with corn syrup, a bunch of crap chemicals, right? That's you know, not leading to health. But oh, but we put five pounds on you, so it works. It's this insure is like the same thing. But what I'm saying is is I mean, I want this in front of Bobby because it's like I feel like the these the manufacturer needs to be forced to make a better product for this gap that exists. And obviously, hospitals need to, you know, inform people. You know, that should be a national thing. Right now it's being state by state.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

You know, it's it's interesting uh that the manufacturers have a playbook. Uh all of them do. Big tobacco did it, the uh baby formula industry has been doing it lately. After these uh verdicts that I mentioned, the first of many verdicts to come uh occurred, they also resorted to lobbying and congressional efforts through appropriation bill add-ons and whatnot to seek immunity. Absolute immunity.

Dr Pompa 40:41

Yeah, well, this happens all the time. Right. I mean, that's what Bayer uh glyphosate is doing, trying to get you know immunity by basically a liability shield.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

The vaccines company did it in 1986. Yeah. And they justify it because they believe that if they can't provide this, uh That's what the vaccines companies did. Right. And so, you know, there are certain members of Congress that have agreed to this concept, others have not. As far as I'm aware, no such immunity bill has passed thus far.

Dr Pompa 41:10

Okay, so but the companies making this are trying for it already. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Very much so. Okay. Very much so. Okay, wow. Because, see, again, they they're saying, hey, we have premies at risk. We're fill, you know, we need to continue to give them this, but we're worried about lawsuits because of this, you know, the uh the the colitis.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah. And don't forget that you know they also have um parts of the parts of the industry, uh, the industrial uh industry that manufacture this work closely hand in hand with scientific research, not just at the hospital neonatal level, but also the whole industry is very much supportive. It's probably a good thing that we have extra funding set the taxpayer doesn't have to provide that the that some of the profits from many of the products that are being sold are funneled back into research as long as the research is valid.

Dr Pompa 42:06

As long as all that goes. Monsanto has so many studies showing the safety of glyphosate, even though billions have been awarded that it causes non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, you know, and not even to mention the autoimmune component. I mean, are there it's after this runs its course, because it's easy for attorneys to pick that because the proof is so strong, but people forget Monsanto had all these science studies showing the safety of their product. So anyone can do that. You know, these companies will do a study and showing the the safety of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

I was distinguishing, though, uh, between company-run studies where they may have uh kind of an ulterior motive, they want to establish efficacy and safety from studies that doctors want to run and scientists want to run, that they just need the funding. Yeah. And and so they don't have the same influence and this and the outcomes should should should be more um normative. I mean, so I'm just saying that it it's it's a it's a complex issue. And so even being honest about it.

Dr Pompa 43:11

This is the same as the cigarette conversation, nicotine conversation, this is the same as the glyphosate conversation, this is the same as the vaccine conversation. I mean, it really is. It's it's just like how it works, right? It and it gets so corrupt, you know, they want to protect themselves, they want to be on, you know, there's a professor shields of liability.

Donor Milk Access And Health Equity

SPEAKER_00 43:30

And Gerald Hastings, um, he's a he's a professor from England, um, and he was asked by the World Health Organization 10 or 12 years ago to undertake uh a confidential study where the sources would remain confidential to see what was really going on with the infant formula, because they were focused on that particular issue. So they interviewed people in the industry, people who used to work at Abbott and Meade, and people who had access to information about. Things that were not public uh domain. And he wrote an article, and I think your staff has it, called Selling Second Best. And he he attributed it to um what he termed, and it might not be his his initial creation, um, the industrial um epidemic. So he felt and documented why this was very much pattern and practice uh aligned with many other industrial epidemics, most of which you know more about than the average person and and and your viewership, and you probably talk about them all the time. But it it seems to be sort of a recurring theme here. And it's so it's really the broader issues do impact um us uh nationally. But think about it. How can that happen in certain corridors like NICU hospitals where the most educated, caring individuals do populate? These doctors care about these babies. There's no question about it. Yeah. And how could that all be true? And yet the parents aren't being told, and yet it's less safe product than human milk is is is being offered without every effort being made to lessen that.

Dr Pompa 45:15

Don't underestimate the doctor's lack of knowledge about nutrition. Okay. I mean, that's one of the things Bobby Kennedy is also trying to change, right? That they need to get a better knowledge. Most conditions, diabetes, go down the list. They'll tell you, oh, yeah, diet doesn't have anything to do with that. Cancer, diet, yeah, your diet doesn't have anything to do with that. I mean, that that's mostly believed they believe that. They think it's just genetic. So I would say there's a large percentage of the doctors who aren't associating the nutrition of this pre-formula, you know, with a problem.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

I think I've actually heard that from some of the physician experts that we've uh we've worked with because we were trying to understand uh we would ask questions like, well, what did you do in your NICU when you were treating babies? And what was and and they would say, well, this was the policy of the NICU, and this is how we did it. And then we would ask them, you know, what did you was that a problem? Is that a conflict? How did you feel? And you know, some doctors would say that, you know, there's so many decisions that had need to be made so rapidly, and so many things the parents are worried about that we really just couldn't worry about engaging them on everything, including I I think that would be probably exactly what we're talking about.

Dr Pompa 46:26

Well, that's not everyone. That's right. But that would be a broad answer for sure. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah. And others, others who who've like one in particular who was active in publishing um on breast milk substitutes and and basically not just for preterms, but in general to just basically hospital-friendly initiatives. I don't know if you ever heard that. There are hospitals, um, including, I think, um uh UMass, Boston associated with Harvard, that early on realized that you're giving too much control and access to these formula companies if you allow them to hand out gift bags to babies' parents leaving hospitals. And so they stopped accepting incentives, they disallowed marketing. Um, and so the baby-friendly, hospital baby-friendly initiative, which also encouraged um prolactation experts, educational initiatives to the mothers, because this is also part of the problem. Yeah. If you're not educating the mothers, encouraging them, it's not easy to breastfeed sometimes, right? That's right. And so this doctor, anyway, getting back to that issue, he said to me that we were not educated properly about this subject matter of breast milk, human breast milk versus breast milk substitutes in medical school or anytime thereafter. And I'm like, how is that possible? He says it just wasn't really part of the curriculum. Yeah. And so if it wasn't part of the curriculum in med school, and if it's not being emphasized in continuing medical education or continu or any other forum, and what they are hearing is from essentially advocates and representatives of the formula folks who also have Yeah, so it's the opposite. They have and listen, they have titles and and and they have expertise, and they probably are explaining their initiatives and they're, you know, they're always innovating, they're always trying to improve the money.

Dr Pompa 48:13

But see, because uh it follows the money trail. I mean, there's an incentive financially to come in and educate these doctors, nurses, blah, blah, blah, you know, people dealing with uh the the infants about why your formula is so great and how to use it, et cetera, et cetera. But where is the money for you know educating people about the importance of breastfeeding and how to do it if this happens? Yeah, there's no financial benefit for that. That's just doing the right thing. So it leads to the money trail all the time.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

And if you're not educating and if you're not making provision and providing answers, people aren't asking, the doctors aren't necessarily informing, and the formula companies have an easy answer. Uh-huh.

Dr Pompa 48:55

And it's here. Yeah, and it's right here. And people aren't being I think, you know, step one is informing people, right? Every hospital needs to inform people. And to your point, there's still hospitals not informing people, which is tragic. The second step, I believe, is getting the manufacturers to make a better formula. And I think that's where I would like to see it go, right? It's like, of course, you know, get compensation. I mean, your child died or injured, whatever. I mean, compensation, absolutely, that's why they're hiring you. Um, and that should happen. But the bigger goal, I think that's where, you know, something like maha, you know, making America healthy again, it starts right there. You know, when you're putting that poison, and those are my words, not your words, that poison in those babies, you're starting life, you're creating problems. Even if they don't die, even if they're not one of the one and the three that die, um, but they're gonna have problems the rest of their life. I know. I know how these things work. So those manufacturers need to make a better product. But I again, that's a that's a tall tale. I I think those are separate lawsuits, and those things need to go to our health secretary, I believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

The issues are so so scientifically based, and um, and there is a lack of convincing clinical evidence for governmental entities and and agencies to to regulate things to a degree where they would start to take away the discretion from the hospitals and the nutritionists and the new and etologists. This is a this is a theory I'm positing. It would it it I think it's part of the reason it's been difficult for them to do that because it happens in a in a confined environment with a very, very educated class of people making the decisions. So who knows better, one would say, than the people in control who are interacting. So it just makes it harder for an outside force, um, with all these other you know, political influences and and and uh concerns to come in and and regulate if it and it's not something that's really um conducive to headlines. It's it's it's it's too.

Dr Pompa 51:06

Well, I think that's part of my stuff. I I'm I cannot believe people aren't talking about this on you know, in the media. I've seen it nowhere. That's why I wanted to do the show, by the way, because I think this is tragic. I can't even believe that we're not talking about this. I I can't wait to get in front of you know Bobby Kennedy and be like, do you know about this? Do you have you heard about this, right? I mean, you know, how it's stunning. I I think that from a federal level down, there's something needs to be something done. I mean, I don't know how many lawsuits are going on right now. How many? And how many have there are thousands. Okay. And there were only three that went the verdict thus far. Only three that won the verdict. On the product side. So one once on the product, on the manufacturer side. Yeah. Three wins. Uh two wins, one mistrial.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Okay. All right. And then but thousands going on. And thousands to come. Okay. And I think currently in Cook County, uh, Illinois, we have we have a case going on right now.

Dr Pompa 52:03

My hope would be there's the more wins start happening, right? Then it would make the the manufacturer, because at the end of the day, they're looking at how much we're paying out and you know what we can do about it, right? If if it's peanuts, what they're paying out, they'll just keep manufacturing the same product. If it's not, the board, because they're concerned about their stock, they're gonna say, we need to make a better product. Can we make it safe? If I were on the board, I'd be like, how do we make it safe? You know, it's like so because once the numbers start stacking up, now we have to make it safe. So that's how that's going to happen. Yeah, right. Hospitals, I think, is the easier thing because that's like, hey, I don't want sued. You know, I heard Yale got sued, blah, blah, blah, this hospital got sued. You know, make sure we give informed consultation. It's a pressure point.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

That can be like that. It's a it's a good pressure point and it's a useful pressure point because it actually is in their own best interest to you know, to right.

Dr Pompa 52:57

And I think once again, that's why this needs to be out there, the media, because if they start seeing on Fox News that like, you know, these hospitals are getting sued for this, guess what? You know, those CEOs are going, ho, ho, whoa, do we have this in place? Are we telling people about it? And why are we using this? Do we have why don't we put a whole thing in to get more donor milk? Right. I mean, because uh it's from the top down, they care, man.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

You know, they should publish uh you have a platform, we don't. Um you should publish the memorandum of decision written by the judge who oversaw the Yale uh trial that it that occurred late last year. Well, because that's a 30-page decision.

Dr Pompa 53:33

I need that because I'm popping it in front of the you know, the health secretary. I'm I'm putting that in front of Bobby. I mean, I have avenues there. So, you know, in matter of fact, what would your advice to me? Um, you know, getting in front of the the Maha board, him, what would you say, like how would you approach that?

Lobbying And Regulation Blind Spots

SPEAKER_00 53:52

So I think you first have to look at what they're aware of and what they know because their knowledge base. You know about this? Yeah. Yeah. So and and where are they getting their information from? Because you know, uh obviously if it's reliable information, um, and they should definitely hear both sides of it. And and there there is doubt in some corners of the uh scientific industry or or uh scientific uh advisory uh capacity of what is known. Like so, for example, these you you gave me uh nice water before because you saw I was drinking out of a forum, the best. I was drinking out of a uh plastic.

Dr Pompa 54:34

Yeah, yeah, I diced them on that. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean and what is the first thing you said when you drank this water? You were like, It's great tasting. It's great tasting. That's how I fell in love with it.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

But the thing is, um, you know, I was I was working out yesterday and I was I and I was watching the news and uh this the health secretary, uh Mr. Kennedy, uh he was talking about a team effort to do a research study of some$145 million. That's a lot of money, but it's a necessary study for the microplastics. That's right because they first have to measure it, determine which ones are dangerous, and then they can focus on um remedies. Yes. And get which ones need to be gotten out.

Dr Pompa 55:15

But in general, yeah, you were right on that. Microplastics added to drinking water, potential contaminant list at uh RFK Junior's launch,$144 million. He calls it Stomp, um, basically systemic targeting of microplastics. And this morning, guess what I put in front of the board? I said, Oh my gosh, you know, I you have to have this person sp talk about this who has a company that uh you know it's uh tea that doesn't have microplastics. Anyways, my brain goes to work on that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

So the the reason they need the research study is because they need to convince um in in one respect um the people who are in control to make decisions, you know, cures as well as as as um alternatives. But maybe we don't need a research study to know that I probably shouldn't have been drinking out of that canister because whatever the level, whatever the capacity of those little microparticles to get into my bloodstream, maybe the thing is until you know if you can live, like you can't stop breathing, you have to breathe. But you can stop drinking out of that uh plastic canister and doing other things where, like putting things in the microwave, my wife will slap me and say, What are you doing? Um So I'll still do that.

Dr Pompa 56:32

Yeah, it's always the wives that seem to be able to realize that you know this is affecting our health, right? And they do something about the men just continue on.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

And if there was a a general consensus that all the things we said at the outset of our discussion were likely true, even at scientific levels of certainty, not lawyer levels of certainty, wouldn't it make sense to do exactly what you said, your words, your suggestion, not mine, to just simply make sure that reasonable alternatives such as human-derived formulas and fortifiers are universally available for the poor, for the weak hospitals that don't have the ability to do it. Yeah. And why not put that money and that effort preemptively, prophylactically for the next 10 years while these research studies are being done? Why not just essentially withdraw that product from its capacity to cause increased levels of risk and potential harm? Because we don't need to know everything else that we'll learn as to why and the pathogenesis, and it's so multifactorial. You know, you're dealing with these kids, and there's 20 reasons why they get neck. It's not just the formula or the fortification. That might be the you know, the tipping point. Well, I call it a perfect storm.

Dr Pompa 57:47

There's other stressors. So why why one out of three die, right? Well, I be believe the because the ones who die actually had probably a few other stressors going on, and it was even worse, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:59

So sometimes they don't catch it quick enough. And it and and and and and there is a definite statistical correlation between the size of the baby. So if it's seven or eight hundred grams instead of fifteen hundred grams, their neck rates are three or four times. So their their mortality rates will be much higher. But that also goes back to their vulnerability. Yeah.

Dr Pompa 58:20

So it's not, it's it, it's it's yeah, in my mind, if I I mean, a product that causes such a high correlation, I mean, of this problem, it's like this pro it should be banned right out of the gate. I mean, it should be outlawed, boom. I mean, and again, for something as important as starting this life right, you know, giving in human donor milk is like, I mean, that should be a campaign. This should be on every media channel. This should be a campaign right now.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

You know, I I don't get involved in these sorts of things because it's more of a marketing uh public relations thing. But if I did sit on the board of Abbott or Mead, I would do exactly what you said, and I would turn this into a win. I would say we're either going to acquire the technology through a company that already does it, and there are several, we're going to develop it if that's a path. But what we are going to do is we're going to say we're not taking chances with these preterm, these vulnerable ones. There's enough of a basis, and certainly juries have spoken as well, and we're just simply going to put the money and effort from the profits that we make from the 90% of the formula that we sell that we sell to the full-term babies, which is very high margin. And we're going to put that into giving healthier, human-based alternatives at our expense. And we're going to make this a national priority for our company. And we're going to be able to do that. If they did that, do you know what kind of goodwill they would engender?

Dr Pompa 59:45

So I don't know how many of these companies are uh formula companies that are.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

There's two primary ones to be now.

Dr Pompa 59:51

Okay, great. Let's talk about it. If I'm the one, let's say it is Abbott, right? And they're watching this, or I I'd be like, okay, we need to be the one that steps up. We need to be ahead of the thing. It would be smart. It would be so smart. But see, and they are smart. And that's that's how you utilize capitalism to make a change. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

You know, so and then they can continue to innovate and do all the things that they're doing and support the research studies, and they'll still have their supply demand, you know, chain for the next two years when people leave the hospitals. And and frankly, you know, the lawyers will be really happy they did that. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Pompa 1:00:30

I there there's there's listen, I lawyers do get a bad rap um because of frivolous lawsuits, right? I mean, all that. But when we're talking about this type of legality tort, it's like there is such a need. I mean, it's like, because we're not going to turn these companies otherwise. We're not gonna change how the hospital does this unless there's consequences. It that's it. You know, and when the consequences get hard enough, bad enough, that's when these manufacturers will change, right? It's like that's when they're gonna make a change. Or if they, again, I'm hoping the right person share this because I'm hoping the right person sees this. It, you know, they know someone who's on the board. Maybe they are on the board, and it's gonna be a wife who sends it, by the way. It's like, honey, you need to watch this, right? And then they're gonna say, let's be the first. Let's change this.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

If if they did that, the pathway to settlement would be so much easier. It wouldn't just be dollars and cents and predicting the reserve that they have to have because of the lawsuits that they may lose. That would be that would not be the primary. They would they would actually take the win, settle the cases and make make make people healthy.

Dr Pompa 1:01:43

Yeah. And then how much if there is another case that pops up from the past, etc., I mean, how much better will the judge look, right, at this company and be less, you know, he'll be like, okay, they made changes, they did this. I mean, there's repentance here, you know, it's gonna look really good for them. Um how far back I I'm I'm just thinking of like parents watching this, you know, mothers watching this going, This is what maybe what happened to my baby. Yeah, right. It's like, so can they can they make this argument now? How far back can you go? What what do they do right now? Because there's probably people scratching their head going, I I wondered why my baby died, and they were never even told.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

You would hope that they were told at least the diagnosis, but they probably weren't told.

Dr Pompa 1:02:29

Okay, let's say they were given diet, some oh, some crazy uh colitis, this, that, and the other thing.

What Parents Can Do Today

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

So y uh interestingly, um these are these are minors, they're considered minors, um, the infants that either uh sustain terrible damage or or that perish. And under many, many, many states, Connecticut's not one of them, by the way, uh wish it was, but um under the state law of many states there's a tolling provision, which means the statute of limitations doesn't start to run until they reach the age of majority. So you can go back 18 to 20 to 21 years, depending upon the statute in your particular state. But of course, um you have to keep in mind also that what was known in 2020 was probably not as well known in 2010 or 2009. And even if it was, the body of evidence existed, but the alternatives, the substitutions such as donor milk, the milk banks, the availability of the alternative may not have been as readily available in 2005, let's say, to 2020. So the moral culpability, the financial Yeah, I get that.

Dr Pompa 1:03:38

So maybe there wouldn't be as strong of a lawsuit with the hospital. However, you know, if we still have the all this evidence that this is causing this, it's like they have a case. Now, it people watching this right now, I mean, you're taking cases on, right? How do they reach you? Because if I was watching that, I'd be like, well, I want to know. Do I have a case? My baby died. Well, we don't injured. We're not running advertising. Um, I know, but can someone reach out? What do they do? I I'm the person out there right now is going, well, who do I contact?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

I want to So my name is Paul Levin. I'm based in Connecticut. Um my partners are Stephen Reck, um, Jose Rojas, and Scott Camisar. So if you Google any of our names and just put um, you know, attorney Paul Levin, um, even if you didn't put neck uh or necrotizing anthrolitis or anything like that, you'd you'd still come up and and and find us. If you put baby formula litigation, um Paul Levin, Steve Reck, Jose Rojas, our names will come up and and you just call the office. We're we're not one of these firms that have, you know, an intake department and a telephone room and all that.

Dr Pompa 1:04:48

Yeah, well that's that's good. I mean, um now is it state by state, meaning like you're only arguing Connecticut uh cases or no, you're connected around the country.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Around the country. Okay, good um we can file cases in federal court no matter what state um somebody's baby was born in or uh occurred harm. Um and we can also file them in the states where the manufacturers are located if we feel that that's advantageous to do.

Dr Pompa 1:05:12

Aaron Powell You know what I hope I hope the right person watches this um for those reasons as well. But also uh I think you need to be on Fox. I think you need to be on mainstream media talking about this. Uh it's early. It's early yet. Is it? Okay. Well, I heard yeah, early when uh three to four thousand kids a year. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

It's early from the standpoint of um public interest. Um now that there have been a couple of verdicts, um I I I I think interest will probably increase. Um you know, lawyers can distinguish between their personal opinions and facts and evidence that they're aware of, and I think we're capable of doing that. So it's not too early for us to begin the dialogue.

Dr Pompa 1:05:53

Where do you see it going? I mean, um you're you're to your point, it's early. Where where do you see it going? Where do you want it to go?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Some more verdicts. Um probably by mid-May or late May, we'll probably have another verdict, uh, hopefully a good one, uh, for the plaintiff. Um I think that everybody's probably circling around the concept of what's best for certainly from Abbott and Mead Johnson's standpoint, what's best for their brand, their market share. And and I'm sure they do consider the public interest in in in maybe not in the particular order I would prefer, but I'm I'm I'm sure that's part of it. Um I think from the lawyer standpoint, we just keep toiling away and trying to get verdicts and hoping that you know they'll they'll they'll change their uh minds and they'll be more clear to the to the doctors and the medical community about the risks that they are aware of, particularly. And then the medical community will look at what happened to Yale and will say, um, we've already been thinking about this. We're definitely doing it now if we have it. We're gonna make sure donor milk is available, we're gonna make sure that we subsidize it to families that can't afford it. We're gonna make sure that they have that uh capacity. Some hospitals and in many states have passed legislation to subsidize donor milk, um, Connecticut being one of them, but poorer states should be doing that. Um and I think at from a top-down perspective, this really does need to be looked at. I don't know which are the, I mean, one would think it would be the the FDA, but frankly, the you know, the the FDA may resist um wanting to regulate because they don't have the level of scientific certainty that they would want, to be claiming that something's bad and something's good. They probably would be more apt um to say that the presence of human breast milk is clearly best, but they may resist the concept of uh of getting involved in um regulating or l limiting um supply. They may they may leave that to the to the market.

Dr Pompa 1:08:01

I wonder how I don't know if you know this fact, but out of all the industrialized countries in the world, we've ranked last in infant mortality. Did you know that? I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, and that's tragic because you think, oh, look at all our technology, right? I mean, we we arguably have the best emergency rooms, uh, you know, look at all the um health technology we have access to here, and yet we rank last in infant mortality. I wonder how much of this is part of that. I mean, I again I could look at the vaccine schedule, I could look at, you know, a lot of things that lead to that, but this is up there. I mean, this is on the list of why we are so pathetic as a country if we could just change what we're giving these babies.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:47

It it also suggests there's a delivery system problem. So there's an ingredient or medicine or food delivery problem, what's actually being consumed. But then it sounds like there's also a a failure to communicate and provide alternatives and awareness so that choices exist.

Dr Pompa 1:09:05

Oh, yeah, that's evident. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

I mean, so those two things together are probably part of the reason. Yeah. But that's fascinating. You would think that that I mean, we're we're number one in many, many categories, uh, but not there.

Dr Pompa 1:09:16

Aaron Powell Well, yeah. Yeah. But when you look at all health chronic conditions, every year we get worse compared to other countries. And uh obviously the amount of chemicals that we're exposed to and uh the ultra-processed food that you don't get when you go to countries like Italy and France that we were discussing.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

So they drink a lot of wine there.

Dr Pompa 1:09:33

Yeah, well, exactly. That and that it's far better than a matter of fact. If you drink American wine, you get 76 chemicals that don't have to be on the label. That's how we do it here, unfortunately. That's the point. Yeah, that's why I don't drink an apple wine unless I know the vineyard and they're 100% organic. Um but again, I it the same thing's happening in baby formula. Uh, you know, I don't know if you know this, but it it was um uh uh a law that there had to be seed oils in the formulas. And the reason why is because they were there had to be a certain amount of omega, you know, omega-3, omega-6 fats, these parent oils. So but they were getting them from rancid sources. Yeah. So it's, you know, these these oils, if they're cold-pressed, things like sunflower oil, et cetera, can be good, but it's you know, that's not what they're getting. And they go for the cheapest things. They go for vegetable oil, canola oil. It's like nothing. Just to get that amount that's supposedly in the formula, it's poison.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

It's interesting because when we first looked at the statutory scheme surrounding these issues, we we we reread the Infant Formula Act, that is federal law. And ingredients in specified quantities uh and categories are all defined in the law. So all these uh formulas, preterm or full term, have to have certain amounts of A, B, C, and D, probably the oils and things you mentioned. So it's very highly regulated. But what's not regulated, um, there's no there's no pre-approval submission. Like so, if you were gonna sell a new pharmaceutical, you not only would have to have the right ingredients, um, but you'd also have to submit for pre-approval of some degree. Somebody has to look it over and say, this is gonna be safe based on what we generally know about science on your or that we specifically looked at your studies and your studies have proven safety and efficacy. That's not true here. So that means that they can put in whatever substitute, as long as they hit those criteria, the threshold criteria. And they're they're obviously looking to distinguish their products to make it better than the competitors. So they're always infusing it with this or that. In fact, some of the commercials or some of the um press releases that we saw were this is more this is more like human milk because it has this oligoscorite or that one. And so we're like, so you're telling us that you're making it more like something you're selling against that your competitor. Exactly. And then and and that by the way, you're only putting three of them in when we know there's hundreds of human oligosaccharites. Yeah, exactly. And we don't even know the three that you're putting in in the absence of the others are as efficacious or useful. Yeah.

Dr Pompa 1:12:24

Yeah. Wow. I mean, it's it's so half-ass backwards, this whole thing. Just the fact that you know, they make people sign consents when they actually get real breast milk or um, you know, in case you're one in 50,000 chance of getting some sort of an organism in your body. Um Yeah, but it's like you're right, uh versus the chances of you know giving a child a premium, you know, this particular formula and getting this.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

I'll use a lawyer term for that one. That's ass backwards. Yeah, exactly.

Dr Pompa 1:12:59

Exactly. Oh my gosh. I I'm really stunned by this. I I mean I do pray that the right people see this show. So, you know, I share the show uh because people need to know this. Yeah, it's early, but even a better reason to get it there quickly. I mean, this this needs to be I that's why I brought you on. Because when we were having the conversation, I was just floored. I was floored that I didn't know about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

We um when we started um these cases and we were alone, we didn't even have a another bigger firm working with us. So we were really up against um, you know, Goliath, as they say. But we got these little bracelets that save the babies, and we handed them out to our um paralegals because what we realized is that it was horror for them to be dealing with these parents and taking the histories and learning what they learned, and we were having to give them extra vacations and telling them to take time off. Because can you imagine um what that felt like then? We knew that already because for the first, I don't know, 50 or so cases that we got, it was Scott, Steve, Jose, and myself that spoke to the parents because we didn't want our paralegals to do it. Not because we we understood how bad this would impact them, but we needed to actually deal with the parents to understand the issues and to understand what they were told and understanding so you know there's like what do you call a post-traumatic stress syndrome? So I would say that we collectively that work on these cases because the outcomes are are so tragic, it's just it's impossible to not be affected. But yeah, we had these little bracelets, it's it's awesome. Save the babies.

Dr Pompa 1:14:40

Yeah, well, uh, we need to make this national. You know, we should be handing out uh these bracelets, save the babies. I mean, this is an easy save. And I I don't know the numbers of lives, um, but uh I mean that should be the argument.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

I mean, there's an old expression, and I know it's Passover and it's Good Friday. Um if you save one life, it's like saving the whole world. It's sort of an old Talmudic expression, but I mean I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you know, you you don't count the numbers.

Dr Pompa 1:15:11

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, Paul, thank you for exposing this. Thank you for every case that you take on. I pray that we have more than three. I pray that that continues to increase. I do. Um, because that's what's gonna turn the tide here. So um thank you for your work. Thank you for exposing this. And I and I do pray you get on some national ex exposure. Pleasure being here and um appreciate your um your reaching out. Absolutely. Please share this show. You might have three, two people in mind that need to hear it, and one of those might have the connection to someone in the boardroom, change the formula or get you on some major network. So share and like the show.